i was wondering ,what was it like being a witness in 1968 with the vietnam war and the student protests and cold war fears..
Oh yes, pictures tubes that always broke! The TV shows seemed better then.
Cowboy hoopla.
The Corvette is beautiful. So impressive. Bright red. One of my dreams is to have a bright red roaster before I die. A Trimph or Jaguar. I'd settlel for a Mazda Miatta but I hear they are bad cars. Actually, I hear that about Triumphs and Jaguars, too.
this isnt the first time i have posted about problems with one or more of my sisters.
but i need resolve:.
i am disassociated, and have been free for over 25 years.
I'm approaching this from a legal viewpoint. Unless your mother has dementia, she should handle her own affairs. She is competent enough to loan money, she is competent enough to direct her money. I don't believe it is anyone's business how she handles it. When I was accepted into law school on a full scholarhsip, I needed $100. to reserve my place. I had no $100. because everything went to classes for the law boards. My grandmother gave it to me as a loan. I promptly paid her back. My JW grandmother paved the way so I could go to law school. I doubt she bragged about it at KH.
Even if your mom is ill, it sounds as though she could manage her money with minimal insistence. It is legally and morally wrong to take away her finances from her. She has conrete rights. It must be hard for her to live with a child.
My sister, raised a JW, and married to a fanatical Catholic, cut off all ties to me when I became very seriously ill with facial pain when I was 28. I could not believe that she wanted nothing to do with me b/c I was ill. There was much domestic violence in our family. I was the hero child. She was the baby. This big baby could not even send me a nickel get well card from a Salvation Army store. We did not speak for 30 years. I hung in and did not commit suicide b/c living well is the best revenge. I prayed to Jesus so many times from the very depths of my soul.
Finally, a new treatment emerged. I am now pain free. My life was destroyed. Our mom cared for me all those years. She was too old to continue. I did not need total care. I turned to my sister when the authorities in Ny said they would place me in Spanish Harlem. I ate all my pride and it killed me. She agreed that I move near her so family was present. We have never acknowledge three decades of hateful silence. We talk, barely. I plot to return to NY and a sane life. Beggers can't be choosers.
Not speaking was the worst choice. My sister chose it. I did not. She has a house and husband. I don't despite my myriad achievements negated by illness. It takes two to tango. I feel better taking a higher road. The last thing I will do is validate my sister's behavior or her morals or her character. But when I rage against her, she has me close. When I force myself to let go and focus on me, I soar away from her and her ilk. Yes, I still plan to have the last word in this play. It was all consuming.
Many times I was at death's door. I am a walking miracle. My sister knows nothing. It is strange to relate a horrid drama that had half of Manhattan talking and your sister does not even know it happened. These fractured, abnormal relationships are the work of the WTBTS. I am Anglican and Christian now. I don't consider the Witnesses Christians. They worship the true Satan, IMO. Christ's grace enables me to look beyond the rage. I am not a ployanna. My fury knows no bound.
You don't want to sit down after 30 years and wonder what the hell started it all. I still don't know what started it. Al-Anon talks of detachment and gives members tools to achieve it. Detach is the best advice. Simple concept but hard to do. Take ahigher road.
does anybody here do any volunteer work?
i mean real volunteer work.
not the jw "knock on doors and annoy people" kind of volunteer work.
I do legal volunteer work now. One of the defining moments of my childhood was when I was a teenage candy striper. It was a great reference and even provided scholarships for nursing. I wanted to show off my cute uniform to the Ministry School. My mom explained to me i would be heavily criticized. When I went to the grocery store, everyone was all over me, commending me. I was so tired of the bizarre Witness stances. So exhausted.
It meant so much to me and the effect of the uniform and hat should be stressed. My father punished me for being worldy and bad. I had to tell the volunteer coordinator that I had to quit b/c my father forbade me. It was so embarassing. Other girls didn't ensure this crap. Why me. It truly was degrading. I saw nothing wrong with helping nurses care for the sick. Rather, it seemed to be something which Jesus would like. He may like it but the Witnesses.
Of all events, this one is so bad. He did not break my spirit but he certainly came close.
i was wondering ,what was it like being a witness in 1968 with the vietnam war and the student protests and cold war fears..
Someone posted this a few weeks ago. 1968 was an awesome year, a true stand out. My abusive father died, leaving me free to not be a Witness and not die. We breathed for the first time. I never attended a KH after that. 1968-I sneaked out of the house to work in Gene McCarthy's campaign. Attended demos in NY and DC. My university, Columbia, was completely shut down. Sorbonne in France and German universities also shut down. Columbia's riots spread to Harvard and Yale, other elite schools. It was a competition to be the most radical.
I was a junior in high school. Martin Luther King Jr. and then Bobby Kennedy were slain. I waited hours to pay tribute to Bobby at St. Patrick's Cathedral. Some space things were happening. If a male student screwed up, the vice principal would call the local draft board.
Without my father, we lived normally. We watched the first human walk on the moon on the Great Lawn of Central Park. When we went to get picnic boxes they were selling for the massive crowds, I ran into David Peel and the Lower East Side, performing on the periphery of the crowd. He announced a very cool music festival was going to happen at Woodstock, NY. The next morning I bought tickets. B/c I was so young, my mom drove my friend and I up. We went up the weekend before to check out the terrain. We had no camping experience. There were plenty of motels.
Next week we drove up. I was so hoping Dylan and the Beatles would bow to public pressure and perform. I was a regular at the Filmore East and other rock venues. If you screamed loud and long enough, the band would come back and peform for four hours. Amazing. Saw Clapton, Richie Havens, Beach Boys, Judy Collins, Sly and the Family Stone, Simon and Garfunkel, Jefferson Airplane. Nothing prepared us for what we saw. Just after we arrived, the NY State Turnpike was closed. Everywhere you looked there were heads. Open drug use and open sex everywhere. Much skinny dipping. The films have romanticized it.
There was no food. My mom walked us to the site. We hiked for miles and miles. fields were completely ruined by the overflow. So we ended up right by a motorcycle gang doing hard drugs. My mom surveyed the scene and announced we could not stay the night. She feared a stampede if it rained. There was no security, no organization. We stayed for the openiing prayer, Richie Havens and a few others. They looked like ants from where we were. I was practiced at getting into very good seats but there was absolutely no way to maneuver. All the way home the thruway was full of abandoned cars.
I was used to massive demos on D.C. NYC is crowded. Nothing ever or since has matched that sight. My mom made the right decision. I believe the concert would have been ever better if they enforced security. I still have my tickets. The NY State Atty General sued to get our money back. I'd rather have the tickets. They are worth far more than the cash value. We were able to get a free poster the week before the event. I had it on my wall for years. My mom discarded it after years. Then I showed her how much money it was worth in New Yorker magazine.
I saw the ballet and the opera. Before my father's death, none of this was possible. I ran away to NY frequently but that is all. My father kicked dogs in the head down cellar stairs. A true Christian a la St. Francis of Assissi. Brother Sun, Sister Moon. Always small dogs, never a German Shepherd or Rotweiller. He wasn't an equal opportunity abuser. My little sister was given a puppy for the loss of her father. Rascal walked in as tho she owned the place which she did. The entire family lavished attention on her.
The Beatles were active. Tommy was at the top of the charts.
a large number of jw.s are df for moral reasons, so you repent and come back.. what happen when one agree to blood , maybe a parent gave permission for.
their child.
is this the unforgivable sin , can one come back after receiving blood.. do they feel that one sin is greater, (blood vs adultery).
Quite a while ago a brother who had been a Witness for decades was d'f'd for having a transfusion. I was in my aunt's KH when it was announced. The whole Hall was shocked. Everyone sucked in air. One year later he was reinstated. So I know what I would do.
He was one of the first cases of outstanding Witnesses compromising their beliefs so I was shocked. Later, it was so common it was no big deal.
Has the WTBTS ever addressed parents fleeing a jurisdiction to prevent a child from receiving a transfusion.
Jesus condemned adultery clearly and maybe he redefined it as a man can do it to a woman. The blood doctrine is so silly. They aren't in the same class.
http://www.expatica.com/fr/news/french-news/europe-court-to-hear-jehovah-witness-tax-case-against-france_99836.html.
europe court to hear jehovah witness tax case against france 9-29-10. the european court of human rights said wednesday it had agreed to consider a case brought by the jehovah witness christian sect against the french government over taxation of donations.. in its request, the group alleged an infringement of the right to religious freedom saying the french government had tried to curtail its activities by demanding in may 1998 taxes on donations from its followers.. the sect said the move was an attempt to end the autonomy of religious communities.. french authorities say the donations were not raised from a religious source and so were subject to the same rules as other donations.. the 1998 demand was for 45 million euros (61 million dollars) at the time, but this amount had since reached 57.5 million euros, according to france.. it involves donations from 250,000 people over four years, an average amount of four euros per person a month between 1993 and 1996.. the court, based in the french city of strasbourg, however rejected a case of religious discrimination against the jehovah's witnesses.. .
2010 afp.
If there were some way of taxing in the US, without heavy intrusion into religious policy, I don't think there would be a bar. The Supreme Court is very unclear about this area. I believe it might be allowed on its face, the actual wording of the legislation. It might be struck down as applied. The details would be important.
Neutral tax lies, applicable to all, regardless of religion or nonreligion should pass constutional muster. I've not had the chance to research this so no one should rely on my comments. Perhaps I will have the time during summer break.
Altho right wingers were outrageous by Supreme Court internet research and noting foreign law (not relying on it, merely noting it), I find the European example a great way to see exactly where we are unique. Americans can be arrogant and assume the world revolves around us but Western Europe has a tradition of religious freedom in the modern world. I assume the American example had an impact but I more likely believe that the drastic change came from internal politics and culture. My writing sample for legal employment is based on the Establishment Clause, often incorrectly termed separation for church and state. If any Europeans know where I can access the history of modern European law regarding relgious rights, I'd be appreciative.
hey everyone,.
i have been getting in on going debates with brothers in the congregation about the role of the governing body.
i feel that jehovah would not want us to blindly follow a particular g.b.
I don't believe this is trolling but HonorsThesis has invented several personalities with different names but the identical writing style to make it look as though he is admired on this site. It doesn't hurt anyone but it does seem silly.
Perhaps the cumulative effect is trolling. How many active Witnesses would last five minutes challenging JW authority, particularly at a local hall?. I don't want to come across as though I am pursuing him. Other posters have remarked on his credibility. It is not my personal, crazy crusade. I don't argue with his point but are we being played? Someone else, not me, googled him. HonorsThesis, Curtains, Listener are simultaneously a treasurer of their local Republican club at college. Would any congregation on the face of this earth or any other planet endorse such actions? He must be lying to not be escorted out. I have more respect for honest Witnesses than someone surreptiously plotting against them.
Notice that Listener orders debate as though he were a high school teacher giving out an assignment.
All his personalities are welcome, IMO. I just feel a necessity to add disclaimers. For some reason, he thinks I am confined to one thread. What stumps me, though, is the purpose of this charade. I wonder if we have a mental patient, not that it is bad to be a mental patient or mental health consumer. Does he return to his congregation and boast how we are wasting valuable time bogged down on his questions?. I will publicly declare that I am a Blue Dog Democrat. Once, I was a flaming liberal but times changed me. I received professional campaign training at a special workshop. Extending arguments with the person going door to door canvassing is a time honored tactic. While the volunteer or staff talk with opposing party's person, they miss many doors where they needed to get in touch with voters for Election Day get out the vote efforts.
Maybe I am playing into his hands. He may be the one with the wits. Imagine someone devoted to politicis, it is not a mad leap.
Please if his mind was truly that the Witnesses are not following Jesus, why would he continue to be a Witness? People have been disfellowshipped and lost family and friends for much less.
hey everyone,.
i have been getting in on going debates with brothers in the congregation about the role of the governing body.
i feel that jehovah would not want us to blindly follow a particular g.b.
Based on a thread I posted, I suspect Curtains is HonorsThesis. I do hesitate b/c I can't believe anyone would do it so obviously.
Of course, I agree with the points. Here, you preach to the choir. The Witnesses never came close to hinting they would accept debate. It is a cult. From my reading of the historical Jesus, I believe he had much in common with the Pharisees. He believed in local worship in daily life as opposed to the Temple cult (cult with a different sense). He dined with them. The anger with the Pharisees appears to stem from the martyrdoms and other persecutions when Stephen preached at the Temple. Jesus died a good Jewish boy. His followers evidently thought they were part of Judaism. They are surprised by the vehemence to Stephen. The Jewish authorities wanted nothing to do with this movement, and, more importantly they wanted Rome to know that Jesus followers were NOT Jews. This antiJewish spirit from the time of New Testament authorship colors the narrative of Jesus in the Gospels.
The Witnesses are not the Oxford Debating Club. They never promised freedom of thought. Rather, from day one, they insisted on rigid control over thought, time, education, marriage, work -- every sphere of human life. Being a Witness does not mean showing up for KH once a week. It is a total commitment of mind and body. The merest shred of scientific evidence trouncing Witness teachings caused my aunt to be borderline nuts. It challenged her worldview. She retreated further into the borg. Most Witnesses lead very narrow lives.
I argued with them when I fled. Now, though, I feel my reasoning and facts are so much better than what they have access to that it like arguing with a small child. The advantage is all mine so I try to have grace. Besides, individual Witnesses, while annoying, are generally nice, wholesome people. Somehow I was provided opportunities they were not. The GB is not nice and wholesome, though. Arguing often makes them go deeper into the cluthes of Bethel. Rather, I believe the best remedy is that God will work on them in his own timeframe, not mine.
anyone know the jw explanation to why did anyone who was resurrected by jesus (or any of the other prophets in the bible), die a second time ?.
were they resurrected imperfect, w/ adamic sin or something ?
was jesus unable to (or chose not to) resurrect them perfectly ?.
This Lazarus question makes a very powerful and moving scene in the book and film The Last Temptation of Christ by Kaztenzakis. In order to highlight Jesus' humanity, often sacricied at the expense of emphasizinghis divinity, he has Jesus hallucinate during the pain of the crucifixion. Satan, as young female child angels, informs him that he need not suffer. Jesus proved his willingness to die horribly. God believes in good life. He walks away from the cross and lives a full life. First, he marries his true love, Mary Magadalene. She died, The angel points out he has need and suggest Mary, sister of Lazarus. He marries her and has many children. As he is near death, he overhears outrageous lies pouring forth out of the mouth of Saul of Tarsus.
He hunts Paul down and there is a big argument. He is adamant he did not die. God does not need death. God wants life. Paul is not deferntial He says the Risen Christ is important and, furthermore, he will assert the Risen Christ whether Jesus die or did not die. Jesus is stunned. Memories flood him. He wants to die for Paul's gospel. He begs God to let him die. The hallucination is broken and the reader returns to Jesus' last moment on the cross.
Katzenzakis and Scorcese raise the Lazarus problem. Scorcese shows him as man with several days rot remaining in his flesh. He is a walking cadaver. While people rejoice over the miracle, zealots angered by Jesus' complete lack of social conscience, sneak up on Lazarus and assasinate him. I think there is also some commentary that Lazarus must hide out from the Jewish authorities for his own good.
The decayed body makes a point. The Last Temptation of Christ is one of my all time favorite books, along with Mere Christianity and the Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis. All those questions I had reading the gospels are mulled over by Katzenzakis. He was not a believer when he wrote the book but it was not written as antiJesus polemics. Rather, both Katzenzakis and Scorcese studied for priesthood. Romanticism about Jesus dies with book.
i was born and raised in the jehovah's witness cult.
looking back at my childhood growing up in the organization and seeing the results of my own life, and dealing with the consequences of indoctrinating my own children with these beliefs, i am sickened and disgusted.
it's never too late to learn, however.
I have the scars! Growing up, I tried to not fall asleep lest demons attack me. Being a child in the 1950s was not fun. We hid under desks and put our hands over our eyes to survive a nuclear blast, ten miles from Manhattan. Right! Russians murdering me became old hat. But Jehovah was going to wipe out all creation, esp. the people I most cared about. Not a single person I liked would survive.
My Christmas tree is tacky, full of exquisite ornaments to celebrate not being a Witness as much as the Incarnation of Christ. I have a keen appreciation for ciivl rights after the prejudice I encountered as a little kid. We barely had enough food but my classmates had abundant food and went on vacations. My mother explained that the years my father should have established himself, he was Bethel playing body guard to Rutherford and Knorr. Veterans were given preference but my father did not serve. Classmates lost relatives in WWII. WWII was on TV 24/7. Korea just skipped by. Knowing D-Day and seeing all the vets with limbs missing, I felt they should be preferred over someone who did not serve and lived on the ritzy Brooklyn Heights and Columbia Heights section of Brooklyn.
I gave up so much for JW, toys, fun, flag salute, catechism class (this I did not mind giving up) yet my classmates declared I was NOT a Christian b/c I did not cross myself or go to Catholic Church.
Birthdays and Christmas are nice. I used to pray so hard to get utterly painful menstrual cramps on meeting nights. Now I look forward to Episcopal Church where women are full partners (though vestiges of discrimination remain. Women get selected by low status churches. Few elite churches choose women. The same goes for gay priests). I sit with NIV or New English Bible and read consecutive sentences. When I make comments about nonJesus Jesus behavior, his messianic consciousness, or whatever I am not disfellowship. On many occasions I publicy pray to "OUr Mother" to break conditioning of thinking of God as male. No one stones me. Many women commend me for the practice, even a few man support it.
